If I was an established recording artist....

[iancurtis51880]

Okay. Because what you seemed to be saying is that there are some artists that don't deal with the human condition, and so the conclusion Hort drew from his definition didn't follow. I don't think anyone would disagree with the main point of that line of argument - that there are some artists whose work is so vapid that it doesn't speak to the human condition at all. But now you're saying that your point is something quite different, that "but the fact is that even while many artists do talk about the human experience and a need for some absolution, that does not necessarily define their work as spiritually redeeming."

That's fine, but then you need support that argument, instead of the other one that you offered before.

Whoever before said that this conversation was stale and tired is right, though... we seem to have it every couple of months. That's one of the reasons I abandoned the PTL thread, because I realized that it was turning into that conversation again. As the man formerly known as devolition alludes to before, the division between what is Christian and non-Christian art is one that is sadly arbitrary and unimportant.[/

What I want to know is-how does an artist or band talking about the 'human condition' and/or absolution of some sort equate into being considered or labeled Christian? I can talk about that all day long, but it's not just talking about our fallen condition that is important, it's either explicitly giving or strongly implying HOW we attain that absolution. That said, every song we hear does not have to be loaded with religious jargon and scripture, however, shouldn't someone who does have faith in Christ, relfect that SOMEWHERE in his or her output? I can see your point about the line between Christians and non-Christians being arbitrary and unimportant, but I think there is one vast difference-a Christian knows about the love of God and forgiveness and lives his or her life in that light.

[Dr. M]

Whoever before said that this conversation was stale and tired is right, though... we seem to have it every couple of months. That's one of the reasons I abandoned the PTL thread, because I realized that it was turning into that conversation again. As the man formerly known as devolition alludes to before, the division between what is Christian and non-Christian art is one that is sadly arbitrary and unimportant.

Is it? You really believe that? See, I brought this up again probably because I feel like for all the times it's been brought up, we've never really gotten to the actual heart of the matter. Usually people just whine about how they hate the Christian music industry, oh its so cheap and advantageous and uncreative, blah blah blah. But I think there's more to the discussion than that.

As a Christian, do you believe every single piece of art you create should reflect that part of you?

[iancurtis51880]

Whoever before said that this conversation was stale and tired is right, though... we seem to have it every couple of months. That's one of the reasons I abandoned the PTL thread, because I realized that it was turning into that conversation again. As the man formerly known as devolition alludes to before, the division between what is Christian and non-Christian art is one that is sadly arbitrary and unimportant.

Is it? You really believe that? See, I brought this up again probably because I feel like for all the times it's been brought up, we've never really gotten to the actual heart of the matter. Usually people just whine about how they hate the Christian music industry, oh its so cheap and advantageous and uncreative, blah blah blah. But I think there's more to the discussion than that.

As a Christian, do you believe every single piece of art you create should reflect that part of you?

I think that my faith in God permeates every facet of my life every minute, whether I'm explicitly open about it or not. I think my faith, if not represented in my speech, should be in my actions, which again, does not mean that I walk around praying aloud or quoting scripture or using religious jargon, but does mean that I act in a way that brings a good reflection of God(which is pretty contrary to the way a lot of my co workers behave and it's not made me very well liked at times). I believe that I also hit on secular pop as well when I said that much of it was full of profanity, greed, sexual references and just general uncreativity. I didn't specifically trash the Christian community-though they are guilty of being horribly uncreative and backwards a lot of times, imo.

[Dr. M]

Yeah I don't really know where I was going with that.

So basically, there shouldn't be a distinction between Christian music and secular music, there are only words and how you interpret them and that's all there is to it. There will be music you find spiritually uplifting, and music that offends you, and either one of them may or may not be made by Christians. The only real distinction is people making music and artificially stuffing it with Biblical references in order to sell it to their target demographic.

[iancurtis51880]

Yeah I don't really know where I was going with that.

So basically, there shouldn't be a distinction between Christian music and secular music, there are only words and how you interpret them and that's all there is to it. There will be music you find spiritually uplifting, and music that offends you, and either one of them may or may not be made by Christians. The only real distinction is people making music and artificially stuffing it with Biblical references in order to sell it to their target demographic.

I dunno. I'll go along with ya to be agreeable.

[Nikmis]

see, it's just marketing, like i said at the beginning of the last thread about this. NIKMIS IS ALWAYS RIGHT SOUND THE TRUMPETS

[Fred]

Yeah I don't really know where I was going with that.

So basically, there shouldn't be a distinction between Christian music and secular music, there are only words and how you interpret them and that's all there is to it. There will be music you find spiritually uplifting, and music that offends you, and either one of them may or may not be made by Christians. The only real distinction is people making music and artificially stuffing it with Biblical references in order to sell it to their target demographic.

I'm not going to pass judgment on people's motivation, but yeah, that's basically what I think. I think it's something that's true of books, visual art, movies, poetry, etc.

[tamajinn]

There aren't too many artists that can do that though, I don't think. Whenever faith is described explicitly in songs, it usually gives them an automatic cornball / cringe factor. Was there anything about the melody or instrumentation of "Children of the Lord" that makes it so hard to listen to now? No, it's lines like "carry in your hearts the great commandment, don't take the cross for granted". It's possible to like the song, but only for its unbelievable corniness.

I just wanted to say that I don't agree with that statement-- I never saw that song, or any other of Ronnie's "Christian Songs" as being anything less than heartfelt. I treasure the fact that he made it a priority to include spiritual lyrics in many of his songs. I never got the impression that he did it to appeal to any particular market or that it diminished the quality of his music. I remember listening to Robot Rock on my headphones, feeling giddy because here was this amazingly talented guy with such a unique sound & style, and he was on our side. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy his non-overtly-Christian music just as much, but it is special to know that an artist you admire is also a brother in the Lord. I can enjoy all kinds of music for what it is, but music that purposefully mentions God tends to help me keep in a good frame of mind, to remind me of who I am in Christ and that the time we have here on Earth is precious and has consequences. It also reminds me that I am loved by God and owe him all the thanks and praise I have. I am a flighty creature that needs a lot of reminding!

I don't know that I have any kind of important point here, I just wanted to say that at the end of your life, I don't think you'd ever regret doing anything that testified to God's greatness and gave a positive witness to the world. I guess the hard part is trying to compose a song in such a way that the end result is positive, which may be impossible to do for every person. One of the weirdest Christian songs I ever heard was Carman's "Satan, Bite The Dust!" which I'm sure he meant as a catchy metaphor for the spiritual battle, but it's hard to imagine that song doing much for anyone but the most undiscriminating believers. Some people loved Steve Taylor for his out-of-the-box style, some thought he was forgettable. There is no pleasing everyone but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. If God is the most important thing in your life, I would think it peculiar if none of your songs spoke to that. Not saying you wouldn't be a 'real Christian' or anything, but I don't see why you wouldn't ever want to write spiritual lyrics.

Sorry if anything here didn't make sense, it's close to midnight and I'm zonked. Just go easy on the pummelling.

[iancurtis51880]

I just wanted to say that I don't agree with that statement-- I never saw that song, or any other of Ronnie's "Christian Songs" as being anything less than heartfelt. I treasure the fact that he made it a priority to include spiritual lyrics in many of his songs. I never got the impression that he did it to appeal to any particular market or that it diminished the quality of his music. I remember listening to Robot Rock on my headphones, feeling giddy because here was this amazingly talented guy with such a unique sound & style, and he was on our side. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy his non-overtly-Christian music just as much, but it is special to know that an artist you admire is also a brother in the Lord. I can enjoy all kinds of music for what it is, but music that purposefully mentions God tends to help me keep in a good frame of mind, to remind me of who I am in Christ and that the time we have here on Earth is precious and has consequences. It also reminds me that I am loved by God and owe him all the thanks and praise I have. I am a flighty creature that needs a lot of reminding!

I don't know that I have any kind of important point here, I just wanted to say that at the end of your life, I don't think you'd ever regret doing anything that testified to God's greatness and gave a positive witness to the world. I guess the hard part is trying to compose a song in such a way that the end result is positive, which may be impossible to do for every person. One of the weirdest Christian songs I ever heard was Carman's "Satan, Bite The Dust!" which I'm sure he meant as a catchy metaphor for the spiritual battle, but it's hard to imagine that song doing much for anyone but the most undiscriminating believers. Some people loved Steve Taylor for his out-of-the-box style, some thought he was forgettable. There is no pleasing everyone but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. If God is the most important thing in your life, I would think it peculiar if none of your songs spoke to that. Not saying you wouldn't be a 'real Christian' or anything, but I don't see why you wouldn't ever want to write spiritual lyrics.

Sorry if anything here didn't make sense, it's close to midnight and I'm zonked. Just go easy on the pummelling.[/quote]


From the persective of a non-christian, an overt message is more likely to have that corniness about it, though. At least that's what I've been told by quite a few non-christians over the years. We're kinda seeing it from a believer's pov, I think. I do tend to prefer something less overt-maybe that says something about my relationship to God, I dunno.